Is spacetime left-handed?

Comparing my model with Peter Woit’s, we basically agree that SU(2)_L acts on quaternions H (that I called Hamilton spinors last time), and that SL(2,C)_R acts on a Weyl spinor W and its complex conjugate W*, say. The standard way to construct spacetime is as the complex tensor product W x W*, but strictly speaking this is a complex spacetime, and not a real spacetime. Woit worries about this, but I don’t: the reason is that it is mathematically straightforward to factor out the complex numbers, and just throw them away. The complex numbers don’t do anything here, and don’t interact with any of the symmetry groups, so they are superfluous.

This standard spacetime is “right-handed” in Woit’s sense, since it is a representation of the “right-handed” Lorentz group SL(2,C)_R. In my model, however, this representation is equivalent to the quaternionic tensor product H x H, which is a representation of SU(2)_L. So shouldn’t we say that spacetime is “left-handed”? Well, not really. It is both and it is neither. In my model, both ways of factorising spacetime as a product of spinors make sense, so you can treat spacetime as left-handed if you want to, or you can treat it as right-handed if you want to.

What you cannot do is treat it as a product of a “left-handed” (Hamilton) spinor with a “right-handed” (Weyl) spinor (in Woit’s sense, which is different from the standard sense, of course). What Woit does is restrict from SL(2,C)_R to SU(2)_R in order to force a quaternionic structure onto the Weyl spinor. He then takes a quaternionic tensor product H x W to define spacetime. This does not work, for several reasons, which are probably all the same fundamental reason. First of all, the restriction to SU(2)_R makes his model non-relativistic, and involves a choice of splitting of spacetime into space and time. This means that he destroys the natural complex structure on H x W, which is an 8-dimensional complex representation, required for the adjoint representation of SU(3) that describes the strong force.

Second, and perhaps even more important, the imposition of a quaternion structure on W mixes the spin-direction (defined by W) with the generation (defined by H). Well, hang on a minute: is this a bug or a feature? Surely we need this feature in order to explain neutrino oscillations? As a neutrino travels through spacetime (defined by W x W*) it changes generation (defined by H x H), while keeping W x H (representing the strong force) unchanged. Yes, I believe this is a useful feature. But Woit interprets W x H as Euclidean spacetime, which doesn’t really work.

The reason this doesn’t work is because W x H, calculated by choosing a complex subalgebra of H, rather than imposing a quaternion structure on W, does not have a scalar as the time coordinate, but an amplitude. Hence it is impossible to factor out the complex numbers to get a real spacetime this way. Again, this is a feature, not a bug, and it is only the interpretation as spacetime that is wrong here. It is “spacetime” (or its dual) multiplied by an amplitude. The amplitude, as I have explained several times, is used to select the electron generation. But it also acts on space to select a direction of spin, and a direction of momentum. That is why, when a cobalt 60 nucleus ejects an electron (first generation), the direction of spin of the nucleus and the direction of momentum of the electron are correlated (Wu experiment, 1957).

At least, that is how my model explains the Wu experiment. Have you got a better explanation? The critical factor is to distinguish the cases when the product of two spinors contains an amplitude, from the cases when it contains a true scalar. In my model, H x H and W x W* contain scalars, so can be used to define spacetime, while W x W, W* x W*, H x W and H x W* contain amplitudes, so can be used to define the three generations. In the usual interpretation of SU(2)_L as internal symmetries and SL(2,C)_R as external symmetries, we may distinguish between an internal spacetime H x H and an external spacetime W x W*, but my model implies that these concepts are interchangeable.

The crucial point is to distinguish correctly between H and W, because H x H is a real spacetime, but W x W is not. The Standard Model makes the distinction here between spin (W and W*) and weak isospin (H), and further splits the spin into left-handed (which we may take to be W) and right-handed (that is then W*). Woit makes the same distinction in different words. Both attempt to unify electromagnetism (described by tensors of W and W*) with the weak interaction (described by H) in terms of H x W. But both destroy the fundamental structure of H x W: the Standard Model destroys the quaternion structure, and hence destroys the three generations; and Woit destroys the complex structure, and hence destroys Minkowski spacetime. If you want both, my model is the only game in town. And in my game you can win the jackpot, because H x W is also the strong force.

28 Responses to “Is spacetime left-handed?”

  1. Robert A. Wilson Says:

    The standard way to look at W x W* is as 2×2 complex matrices. The standard way to select a real spacetime from this is to take the Hermitian matrices. You could equally well take the anti-Hermitian matrices, or multiply by any complex scalar you like. Whatever complex scalar you choose, it plays no role whatsoever in the theory.

  2. Robert A. Wilson Says:

    The great advantage of factorising the strong force as 2×4 instead of 3×3 is that you automatically lose the 9th dimension. You also get colour confinement from the 2, and a fourth (lepton) “colour” from the 4. “Confinement” of lepton “colour” doesn’t make sense said like that, but what it really means is neutrino oscillations. The complex 2 has chosen a direction (of spin), and if we now ignore the spin up/down distinction then what is left of 2×4 is a complex 4-space that breaks up as a complex amplitude plus a complex 3-vector. The complex amplitude distinguishes the three generations of leptons, as already explained, and the 3-vector now has to be factorised as this complex amplitude times a real 3-vector. The real 3-vector is velocity, and multiplied by the appropriate amplitude represents momentum. Now the amplitude is a real 2-space, containing three generations of electrons, and, as we have seen, the geometry of this 2-space explains the oscillations between electron and muon neutrinos. Hence “colour confinement” of neutrinos is the fact that there are only two independent momenta here, where we expected three, one for each generation. In other words, the neutrino generation is mixed with its momentum with respect to a “canonical” direction in space – which can only really be the direction of the gravitational field.

  3. Nige Cook Says:

    “The Standard Model makes the distinction here between spin (W and W*) and weak isospin (H), and further splits the spin into left-handed (which we may take to be W) and right-handed (that is then W*). Woit makes the same distinction in different words. Both attempt to unify electromagnetism (described by tensors of W and W*) with the weak interaction (described by H) in terms of H x W. But both destroy the fundamental structure of H x W: the Standard Model destroys the quaternion structure, and hence destroys the three generations; and Woit destroys the complex structure, and hence destroys Minkowski spacetime. If you want both, my model is the only game in town. And in my game you can win the jackpot, because H x W is also the strong force.”

    But Woit argues that Minkowski spacetime is just plain wrong because it isn’t the Euclidean spacetime the path integral – the heart of all the calculational successes of the Standard Model requires – so please don’t resort to Witten’s/Susskind’s stringy “only game in town” justification for a theory because it enables the survival of Minkowski spacetime (it just censors any other alternative ideas, and turns science into dogma). The essential geometric facts of 4-d spacetime in terms of symmetry is SO(4), which is a proper subset of U(2), Woit’s starting point:

    SO(4) ⊂ U(2),

    Now,

    SO(4) = SU(2) X SU(2)

    Surely the lack of chirality in electromagnetism must in some sense half the isotopic charge suggested here (from 2 to 1), reducing the SU(2) to U(1):

    SU(2) -{chirality}-> U(1)

    It’s a very simple to come up with a physically correct model of fundamental forces that does this mechanically: charged massless SU(2) bosons would have infinite magnetic self inductance, preventing any one net massless current, and reducing the effective SU(2) Yang-Mills equations down to an effective Abelian U(1) theory, by forcing the Yang-Mills charge transfer term to be 0.

    If that’s true (it must be), I’d argue Woit is just a step away from the final theory. But he’s stuck in explaining the standard model in its existing form, without allowing for any error historically – I’d argue that there is an error in the standard model in the SU(2) X U(1) = spin X hypercharge mixing. The correct electroweak group must be U(2), including a simple U(1) type dark energy force whose charge is mass (and which produces the effect called “gravity” by Casimir shielding of its gauge bosons, which aren’t Pauli/Fiertz spin-2 gravitons), plus SU(2) X SU(2) which then reduces to an effective “visible” (illusory) SU(2) X U(1) by the mechanism that charged electrically massless field quanta can’t propagate to transfer charge on a one-way path (due to back reaction/magnetic self-inductance).

    “The great advantage of factorising the strong force as 2×4 instead of 3×3 is that you automatically lose the 9th dimension. You also get colour confinement from the 2, and a fourth (lepton) “colour” from the 4. “Confinement” of lepton “colour” doesn’t make sense said like that, but what it really means is neutrino oscillations. The complex 2 has chosen a direction (of spin), and if we now ignore the spin up/down distinction then what is left of 2×4 is a complex 4-space that breaks up as a complex amplitude plus a complex 3-vector. The complex amplitude distinguishes the three generations of leptons…”

    This is very interesting to me because I have been assuming that at least the SU(3) colour charge theory of strong interactions in the standard model is OK. But surely the dimension of any Lie group

    dim[SU(n)] = (n^2) -1,

    so for n=3, the dimension is 8 gluons, without factorizing it as 2×4 to reduced the 9 to 8. Put another way:

    SU(3) = SO(8)

    The 8 in the SO(8) above is the number of gluons of the strong force, the 3 is the number of colour charges of quarks. Surely this is one piece of maths that’s OK? Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      “The only game in town” is of course a sick joke, for which I do not apologise, because it is Witten/Susskind who should apologise.

      If Woit is arguing that Minkowski spacetime is “wrong”, then I am inclined to agree with him, but I dare not say so in public, because it gets me labelled a crackpot.

      When you say SO(4) is contained in U(2), you mean that U(2) is contained in SO(4). This is a line of inquiry that goes right back to Pati-Salam, and continues to inspire GUTs to this day. In my work with Manogue and Dray, we have spent years arguing about this, and we still don’t agree about what it means, if anything. In my model, U(2) is just U(2), and is not contained in any SO(4). I think this is possibly a way of moving on from Pati-Salam, and finding a new perspective.

      When you say SU(3) = SO(8), I am lost, because SU(3) has dimension 8 and SO(8) has dimension 28, so I have no idea what you are talking about. I am rather afraid that this explosion of groups into ever larger dimensions is a disease that goes back to the early 1970s and for which a cure has never been found. Every time a new representation of an old group appears, a new group is invented to act on that representation. You do this by inventing SO(8) to act on the 8-dimensional real adjoint representation of SU(3). So do lots of other people, in particular the octonion cult of Dixon, Furey et al. But SU(3) itself is an invention of the same kind, acting on a 3-dimensional complex representation of U(2). So SO(8) is not necessary, and SU(3) is not necessary.

      Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem.

  4. Robert A. Wilson Says:

    I was wrong to say that the amplitude selects a direction of spin and a direction of momentum. The experimenter selects the direction of spin. The amplitude is a complex number that converts between spin and momentum, and thereby ensures that they point in the same direction (or opposite direction, depending on your conventions).

  5. Nige Cook Says:

    Just seen your paper on SL(4,R), https://www.newton.ac.uk/files/preprints/ni19014.pdf where you mention it acts on 6d Lie Algebra in Table 4:

    SL(4,R) → SO(3,3)

    This is particularly interesting (aside from the 6 leptons and 6 quarks in the standard model), because Lunsford unified electrodynamics and gravitation with SO(3,3). See his paper: https://cdsweb.cern.ch/record/688763/files/ext-2003-090.pdf which produces the Pauli-Lubanski spin vector from 6d spacetime (3 time dimensions, 3 spatial).

    I strongly argue that this must be true because every big step of progress in quantum field theory has involved putting space and time on an equal footing. Spacetime in the first place led to special and general relativity theories, and then Dirac’s equation giving the original Dirac spinor (predicting antimatter) was based on putting space and time on an equal footing to correct Schroedinger’s equation. Extrapolating, this needs to be done with Feynman’s path integral. The path amplitude exp(iS) must be made reversible between space and time, to put both dimensions on an equal footing. One way here is simply to relate space and time dimensionally. The age of the universe t = 1/H (where H = Hubble parameter) can be measured in three perpendicular directions (of space or of time), just as the size of the universe can be. So there is a simple physical model.

    Maybe we can discuss the possibly relevant groups and how the relate to spins:

    U(1) = SO(2)
    SU(2) = SO(3)
    SU(2) × SU(2) = SO(4)
    SU(3) = SO(8)
    SU(3) × SU(3) = SO(9)
    SU(4) = SO(6)
    SU(4) × SU(2) = SO(9)
    SU(5) ⊂ SO(10)
    SU(5) ⊃ SU(3) × SU(2) × U(1)

    The SU(5) Georgi-Glashow symmetry to yield the SU(3) × SU(2) × U(1) standard model (last line above) was debunked by proton stability, but there is an alternative way to break SU(5):

    SU(5) ⊃ SU(4) × SU(2) × SU(2)

    (1974 Pati-Salam Physics Review D10, p275).

    The SU(4) gives 4 colour charges, the additional colour being interpreted as lepton charge. The SU(2) × SU(2) can be interpreted as a chiral electroweak theory, with the gauge bosons of one SU(2) handedness failing to acquire mass and so reducing from Yang-Mills to what we see as an effective Abelian U(1) electromagnetism.

    Glashow, Georgi and de Rujula came up with another simple idea in 1984, “Trinification”:

    SU(3)_c × SU(3)_L × SU(3)_R

    The first SU(3) is QCD, the SU(3)_L × SU(3)_R breaks down into SU(2)_L × U(1)_R.

    I suspect that this work, done around the time Woit was a student of Glashow at Harvard, influenced Woit. He’s basically trying to succeed where Glashow failed, and get a simple explanation for everything in low dimensions! I do believe that in some sense this is the way to go…

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      I am really really sceptical about this whole GUT approach. It has been pursued vigorously without success for 50 years. Some people may feel it is worthwhile continuing down this path, but it’s not for me.

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      There is, I believe, a simple explanation for everything in low dimensions. But you have to start from a fundamentally discrete substrate of some kind, and build the continuous theories on top. It doesn’t work if you think the fundamentals are continuous. The standard approach for 100 years has been to assume that the waves are fundamental and the particles “emerge” from the waves. But if you want a simple theory then you have to assume the particles are fundamental and the waves “emerge” from the particles.

  6. Nige Cook Says:

    Yes, you are correct. SU(3) ≠ SO(8). I blame age.

  7. The final theory – Quantum field theory Says:

    […] (30 Dec 2023): Dr Wilson has another post up, “Is spacetime left-handed?” https://robwilson1.wordpress.com/2023/12/30/is-spacetime-left-handed/ I commented […]

  8. Robert A. Wilson Says:

    It may be worth coming back to this idea of explosions of groups into places they don’t belong. There is I feel some justice in the term “Gruppenpest”, because once the idea of using groups took hold in particle physics, people started using the wrong groups in the wrong places, just because groups were fashionable. It is really hard now to go back 50 years and eradicate the Pest, while keeping the necessary Gruppen.

  9. Lars Says:

    Spacetime is not even wrong-handed.

    BTW, I also left that comment on Woit’s blog, but he didn’t post it, for some odd reason (Ha ha ha)

  10. Lars Says:

    Wonder if Woit would post this:

    “Spacetime is Not Even Wrong-handed”

    Wick rotate
    And spin like Woit
    Right-hand fate
    Awoits the void

    Claim is grand
    And worthy of song
    But spacetime hand
    Is not even wrong

    (no, “awoits” is not a typo)

    PS Rob. I certainly don’t expect you to post that (not if you hope to ever again get a comment posted on Woit’s blog, anyway) Just thought you might find it humorous. Unlike Woit, you seem to have a sense of humor (beyond the Planck scale, at least)

    PSS I don’t pretend to understand all the group theory stuff, but when someone invokes Wick rotation to make a claim about the physical world, my “reality antennae” immediately go up.

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      Spacetime is not even wrong-headed?

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      No, I’ve got it: “Minkowski spacetime is not even wrong-headed”. There we go, my credentials as a crackpot certified for all (space)time.

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      I suppose it is possible that at the Planck scale Woit does have a sense of humour. But it seems hard to devise an experiment that could detect it. Jokes seem to behave like neutrinos – they go straight through without being detected. Ironically, perhaps, I have proposed neutrinos as mediators for a theory of gravity. Maybe I should rephrase that as a theory of levity.

      • Robert A. Wilson Says:

        Gravity is by far the weakest of the standard four “fundamental forces”, but even so, it would on its own cause the eventual complete collapse of the entire universe, were it not for the existence of the fifth force of “levity”, which has had many names over the years, including cosmological constant, dark energy, antigravity and so on. It doesn’t really matter what you call it, but astronomers have demonstrated pretty conclusively that the universe could not exist without levity.

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      I like your poetry. “Awoits the void” is pure James Joyce.

  11. Lars Says:

    Ha ha ha.

    So much for ever getting another comment posted by Woit.

    Im referring to you, of course. I forfeited that “privilege” long ago, but I do still submit a comment now and again nonetheless.

    And crackpottedness is overrated.

    When everyone is a crackpot, no one is.

  12. Lars Says:

    “Spacetime is doomed (to be right-handed)”

    Spacetime’s doomed
    In right-hand sense
    God assumed
    That left was dense

    Ok, I’ll stop now

    • Robert A. Wilson Says:

      Spacetime on Earth is in fact right-handed. Do you want to know why? In order to determine the handedness, you need to look at the rotations. There are three primary rotations: the Earth on its axis, the Earth around the Sun, and the Moon around the Earth. Our spacetime is rotating in these three ways simultaneously. It therefore has a handedness. Which handedness is it? I don’t care, it’s just a convention. But it has a handedness, of that there can be no doubt.

      The mistake is to think that this handedness is intrinsic to spacetime. It isn’t – it is contingent on Solar System dynamics.

  13. Lars Says:

    Albert Einstein was right-handed. His right hand was his write hand when he was writing about Spacetime.

    What more evidence could one possibly require for the right-(and write-) handedness of Spacetime?

  14. Lars Says:

    Spacetime is right-handed cuz God was”

    The hand of God
    Was surely right
    Cuz left-hand mod
    Would snuff the Light

    Turn day to night
    And light to dark
    An endless plight
    On Noah’s ark

  15. Lars Says:

    I will make a New Years Revolution not to make any more jokes about handedness, rotations , revolutions or spin.

    I promise.

    Happy New Year!

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